Full transcript of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,” Aug. 9, 2026
On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Sen. Bill Cassidy, Republican of Louisiana
- Sen. Bernie Sanders, Independent of Vermont
- National Institutes of Health Director Dr. Jay Bhattacharya
- Nicole Sganga, CBS News homeland security and justice correspondent
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2026 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Can a fractured Democratic Party unite to flip the House and Senate in the fall?
Plus, the challenges facing public health.
As we hit the final stretch of the summer of ’26, the Senate has wrapped up and headed home. One of its last items of business, confirming President Trump’s nominee for attorney general, Todd Blanche, who’s squeaked through by one vote, despite concerns about the administration’s weaponization of the Justice Department.
We will talk with the Republican who put him over the top, Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: Plus, following another progressive-over-establishment upset in the Michigan Senate primary, will the Democratic Party unite? And how will those further left candidates fare against Republicans in the fall?
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ABDUL EL-SAYED (D-Michigan Senatorial Candidate): Sometimes, intrafamily squabbles are the biggest ones. But we all know that, when we walk out the house, we stand united.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: We will talk with self-described Democratic socialist Bernie Sanders about how his party can push back against this Republican attack line:
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DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): The radical left, the maniacs that are trying to destroy it with the disaster known as not socialism, communism. It’s communism.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: Then: Amid a growing number of infections from cyclospora, salmonella, measles, and, yes, COVID-19, we will talk with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, the head of the National Institutes of Health.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
Both the House and the Senate are now gone for the summer, but we begin with one lawmaker who hasn’t taken off quite yet for his home state, Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy.
Good morning, and thank you for delaying your departure to be here in person. It’s good to talk to you.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY (R-Louisiana): Good to be with you. Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you were skeptical – you made that clear back when we spoke in June – of Todd Blanche and confirming him to be attorney general. You did late Friday confirm him, but you said you’re not entirely satisfied. You no doubt will have concern in the future.
And I want to play for our viewers what you said. Take a listen.
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SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: I will be criticized for this vote. What’s new? But the people of Louisiana can be assured that I worked hard to understand the issue and to make the right decision.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: You were emotional there. Your voice cracked. Why? And why do you think you’re going to be criticized?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Oh, you’re going to be criticized.
My voice cracked because my wife thinks it’s endearing. I think it’s embarrassing. But, sometimes, you’re aware of the incredible privilege of representing your state and your nation, incredible privilege.
And as a – as a little boy, I would read history books, and I – and I would read about these great decisions on the Senate floor. And the fact that I have the ability to participate, and after an intense 48 hours of coming up with a decision that wasn’t black or white – you can argue one way or the other, and you can come up with just this side or just that side of approval.
Now, the fact that I, Bill Cassidy, was able to do that, I am so privileged. And whenever I just for a second am hit by the gravity of that and the honor of that, I get emotional. And – and – and that’s just – again, my wife finds it endearing. I find it embarrassing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it does have a great gravity to a decision like this. And you weighed it very carefully.
When we spoke back in June, you – you were specific in some of your concerns. And I know acting Attorney General Blanche now, who’s set for that confirmation, had posted documents, including he rescinded the order to create the anti-weaponization fund, and he had an unsigned statement in which he narrowed the terms of the Trump IRS protections that you had objected to. Now they’ll apply just to Trump, Don Jr., Eric and the Trump Organization.
Senator Durbin, who’s the top Democrat on Judiciary said, these new clarifications, they’re unenforceable. Is he correct?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: So, a couple things.
Again, one more time, if you’re looking for a black-or-white decision here, you’re not going to find it. This is a gradation of gray. But what I’m told as regards to the anti-weaponization fund, if you put it in the context of the political environment, the judicial environment, the process you would have to go back through in order to reinstate, that effectively is dead.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Now, John Cornyn, a former state attorney general in Texas, was comfortable with it. I’m not an attorney.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It took him a while to get there, though.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Took him a while to get there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Basically said, we can’t take his word for it.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: It took him a while to get there, but the fact that John did was important to me.
To a certain extent, I’m reliant on others that are bringing me information, and I have to trust them on that, not everything, but some of that. And I trust John on that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And on giving his family protection from IRS probes?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: That’s totally wrong, totally wrong. And so I will go back, this is not a black-or-white decision. That is wrong. And no American should be targeted by the law, but no American should be above the law. And that, frankly, almost weighed to vote no.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you’re just hoping it – you had to accept it in the end. I mean…
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: So – so, let’s look at the positive. There’s three aspects to the attorney general.
The attorney general is supposed to give advice to the president, supposed to run the Department of Justice and is supposed to make sure that the U.S. attorneys nationwide are doing their job. It really weighs strongly in his favor when I speak to my U.S. attorneys in Louisiana – and I spoke specifically to David Courcelle and Kurt Wall.
And they said, listen, we have calls once weekly between our office and DOJ, and they give metrics for our prosecutors, and each individual prosecutor is weighed on that metric. And we’ve had our focus restricted down to fighting violent crime, human and drug trafficking, and going after fraud in programs like Medicare and Medicaid.
And if I need extra resources to bring a case home, we do it. And if there’s a drug kingpin, we get the resources to go after them. And – and our morale is up, not despite the accountability, because of the accountability.
Now, if you want a DOJ which is actually doing its job, you need stable leadership, and you need leadership which is effective. And in that which is making the greatest difference in my life, in your life, in the American people’s life, there’s a lot of positive things to say about Todd Blanche.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you are confident that he will uphold the Constitution with the upcoming elections? There are Democrats saying he may not.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Well, of course, there’s always this existential anxiety.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: But I am as confident as you can be about the future you are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: I cannot predict the future, and this is not a black-or-white decision. But I’m confident on that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about something that’s come up in the news recently. On this program, we have talked extensively about the really concerning rise in antisemitism in this country.
There have been remarks in the past few days from some of your Republican colleagues that do seem hateful about other religions, specifically about Dr. Abdul El-Sayed in Michigan, who just won that Democratic primary.
Senator Tommy Tuberville said: “Democrats just voted to send a terrorist to the Senate. He’s a radical Islamist.”
Nancy Mace said: “Every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse and a threat to both national security and our republic. We refuse to be silent.”
These are just two of these statements. Are you comfortable here? Does your party need to condemn language like this?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: I condemn language like that.
It’s not to say that – let me just stop. The – the – the Muslims that I typically work with are doctors working in a remote area of Louisiana who otherwise would not have a physician unless Dr. Mohammed actually agreed to move there and be their doctor, or he is the or she is the professor teaching students something positive.
Now – so you have to take every community in its totality. Every community has a bad apple, and every community has those people, my gosh, weren’t they wonderful people? Now, my exposure has been to the wonderful people. I condemn those statements, and everybody should be treated as an individual. If somebody is awful, they should be treated as awful.
But we shouldn’t treat everybody as awful because somebody with whom they are identified may be awful, if you follow that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I do. Thank you for your clarity on that.
I want to ask you about Social Security, something I know you’ve been trying to work on here and reform. It’s an emergency. If you look at the Social Security Board of Trustees, they say it’s going to be insolvent in six years; 70 million beneficiaries will see a 22 percent cut to their checks every month, which means about $500 less in their pockets each single month.
You’ve got a few months. What can you get done?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: So we’re trying to get something done. We were trying to set up a process by which the Senate would invite the House to join and present bills that could be a solution. We don’t dictate what the bill would be. It could be Ron Wyden’s bill. It could be Bernie Sanders’ bill. It could be Bill Cassidy’s bill.
We would just present things to the Congress in order for us to consider, to set up that process.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, a pathway.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: I tried to get that set up. Ron Wyden came to the floor and objected. And I’m thinking, why are you objecting to a process? It could be your bill that we choose.
Why doesn’t Congress do its job? Congress wants to be political. We’re always angling to try and get the advantage, particularly in front of an election. As you read, the actuaries predict this fund is insolvent in six years. This is not the time to be political. It is the time to be a good senator.
I was told by a couple of my colleagues, I’m a lousy politician, but a good senator. I would challenge everybody at this moment to be a good senator. And, by the way, when you object just because of politics, as best I can tell, that’s just so incredibly wrong.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, there is a Democrat looking to do something on this. Elizabeth Warren had this op-ed with Bernie Moreno, the Republican from Ohio, this past week arguing that, in order to help Social Security, they should eliminate the payroll tax cap, which currently applies to the first 184,500 bucks someone takes home, the rest of it being exempt if they make more than that.
Do you support this proposal?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: First, let me say, this is not Republican-Democrat. Dick Durbin is the one who’s leading the charge with me to try and get this done.
And so, absolutely, as a bipartisan, yes, let’s set up that process as regards. As regards the solution…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Yes.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: … that would be one of the things we consider. If Elizabeth and Bernie Moreno want to get their proposal considered, we first have to set up this process, and that’s all Dick Durbin and I are trying to do, is to set up a process.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re trying to force the conversation to be had. But…
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: And – and, if we come up with a solution to force the fact that it would be considered in committee, and then force the fact it would be considered on the floor. And once you force those two things, we could actually come up with a solution this year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, AARP opposes your PROMISE Act because they say you got to do the hard work now. But you’re saying no one’s doing the hard work now, so you need to at least create the…
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: No one is doing the hard work now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: And, by the way, what I said to AARP, if – would you accept that we would do this if it wasn’t a commission – they don’t like commissions – if we come up with just senators and representatives…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: … that would come together over the next two months with open hearings, and then we would in these next two months have the open hearings, and then we present the solutions, they said they would accept that. And so that’s what we came up with.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But how do you get – Bernie Moreno’s here? OK.You’re here. But how do you get other Republicans, when President Trump has said – – campaigned on a promise not to touch Social Security, and you have these midterm races?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: So – so, implicit in your kind of question is that you’re going to cut benefits, that you’re going to do something harmful. That’s not…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, he said he won’t touch it.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: That’s not on the table.
What if you touch it and you rescue it? I think the president would touch that. What if you touch it and you actually increase benefits for some? I think the president would touch that. But, by the way, Congress should be acting independently of the president.
The president is not Congress. And so we should do our job and we should step forward, no matter your party. Put politics aside.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As you’ve said, though, Congress sometimes acts like an appendage of the president.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Which is wrong. And, right now…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But do you have any agreement from leadership of your party that they will take this up?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: And, by the way, that was – that’s what we were voting on. Let’s set up a process by which the leadership would be forced to consider the solutions put forward, and any senator could replace a particular solution with their own proposal. It would be the way Congress is supposed to work.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you would be open to things like raising the retirement age again?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: I’m not – I’m not predicting. One, that is not part of my plan. Let me first say that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t want to be prescriptive in the solution. You just want the process.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Yes, but I have a plan, and we don’t raise the retirement age in my plan. But that said…
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is the sovereign wealth fund?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: … somebody else may have a plan that does that.
What’s that?
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is the sovereign wealth fund plan you had with Senator Kaine?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: This is the one where you do a investment fund and you put $1.5 trillion in it, and you allow it to grow with the economy. It’s what the Canadians do, the Norwegians do, the Japanese do. It’s what the U.S. government does with the federal railroad retirement system.
When you do that, the growth in the economy takes care of a lot of the problem with the debt.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is anyone at the White House listening to you?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: So, Howard Lutnick actually spoke. I have spoken to he and Bessent and others. But Howard Lutnick, in one of our Republican lunches, spoke about how such an investment fund could be used, as Google uses it and others use it, to meet future obligations.
And so, certainly, they’ve entertained it. And when I – whenever you talk to somebody who does this sort of thing, they say, like, why aren’t we doing this?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Well, I want to talk about this as well with – with Senator Sanders, who we have later on in the program.
I want to ask you about something you have raised was concerning to you back in June when we spoke. You had a really tough exchange with the president over the Iran war, and you said you were not getting enough information at that time.
You got a private briefing. You were giving them some space to work on the diplomacy. That’s all collapsed now. We are back in hostilities. Does the president need to deliver to the public some explanation of what is going on?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Yes, I think he does.
J.D. Vance came and spoke to the Republican lunch and did a good job of explaining the perspective as to how to go forward. And someone said – not me – someone else: “J.D., the president needs to give that same message to the people.”
And J.D. said: “Well, the president has.”
Well, he may have, but it’s being kind of overwhelmed by everything else being said. And so I think the president needs to come out and speak forcefully on what the path forward is. And – and, at some point, it may be that that path forward works or not, but at least there needs to be that dialogue with the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can you explain to us what that path forward was that J.D. Vance explained to you?
(CROSSTALK)
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: So, I will do my best.
To continue to put economic pressure, for example, by blockades, upon the Iranians that will cause them enough discomfort that they will actually come back to the bargaining table. At the same time, continue to get oil through the Strait of Hormuz. J.D. points out that oil is $80, more than the $60 it was at the start, but a lot less than it was at $110 at the peak.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: And so we are having success getting oil out of the strait. And that success blunts the effectiveness of what the Iranians are trying to do at the Strait of Hormuz.
But that continued economic pressure, while alleviating the pressure on the West, as well as continued selective operations, is part of a long-term strategy. It’s not something that ends it tomorrow, but something which gradually brings it to a close.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, this is really sort of an extended, open-ended hostility situation?
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: I won’t speak for J.D., but I do think that, again, we – everybody assumes that something’s going to start and end.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: But we’ve been with the Iranians now for 47 years. And I think their point is, is that this is a continuation of that policy by other means.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Cassidy, thank you for joining us today.
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we turn now to Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders, who joins us from Burlington.
Good morning to you, Senator Sanders.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS (I-Vermont): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are 86 days away from the midterms. Tuesday in Minnesota, progressive candidate Peggy Flanagan, the current lieutenant governor, who you have endorsed, is taking on a more moderate candidate, Angie Craig.
Do you think this is going to be a similar dynamic to Michigan, where this was a tight race?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: I think it’s going to be a tight race. I hope very much that Peggy wins.
I think what we’re seeing in Minnesota, Margaret, in Michigan, and all across this country is that people understand that we’re living with an economy that is rigged. You have working families, 60 percent of our people living paycheck to paycheck. People can’t afford groceries, housing, health care, basic necessities of life.
And, at the same time, they’re seeing the richest people in this country become even richer. People are tired of the status quo politics and establishment policies. They want real change. And Peggy Flanagan is about bringing about real change, standing up to the big money interests.
There is a reason why the super PACs and the billionaires are flooding Minnesota with all kinds of money, same thing as Michigan. They don’t want somebody to stand up for the working class in Minnesota.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you still are confident Flanagan is going to pull this off?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: I’m sorry?
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are confident Flanagan will win?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: No, I’m not confident. I think it’s going to be a very, very close race.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: I think she is being outspent seven to one. And, under those circumstances, it’s tough for anybody to win.
But she has a good ground game. I know she has a lot of grassroots support, and I will do everything that I can to see that she does win.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
I know that you haven’t gotten involved in many governor’s races, with the exception of Maine. But Democratic Socialist Francesca Hong in Wisconsin is expected to win her Democratic primary. There’s been some attention to some of her social media posts recently, but she has this platform of free childcare, state-run grocery stores, more health care subsidies. She wants to raise income taxes on millionaires.
Some of this does seem to align with your platform, so I’m wondering, you know, why don’t you support her? Is some of what she supports too extreme for you?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: No, raising taxes on the rich, making sure that everybody in Wisconsin or America has health care as a right sounds quite reasonable to me.
I just – look, we have a limited number of races that we can be involved in. Most of my focus on is getting people elected to the United States Senate, getting people elected to the House of Representatives. So, I – with one exception, we have not been involved in a governor’s race, and that’s somebody who I have known in Maine for many, many years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who – who is now running for the Senate in Maine?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: That’s right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s right. Sure.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: That’s right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There was in Michigan this historic turnout, but the race was closer than many had expected. Dr. Abdul El-Sayed, former public health official, he did win by just one point.
Since that time, President Trump has said he’s happy that he won because he’s going to be an easier candidate to defeat, basically, is what he’s implying. And “The Economist” has polling showing the party’s victory probability has fallen to 48 percent, putting Democrats’ chances of controlling the Senate at 49 percent.
Obviously, you want to resist that, that – if – that projection. What’s your strategy on a coalition here?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, I look at that analysis a little bit differently.
Margaret, in Michigan, in my view, Abdul’s victory was one of the most extraordinary victories in modern political history. You tell me, have you ever heard of a candidate winning who was outspent nine to one? Sixty million dollars in billionaire-funded super PAC money came into that race, half from AIPAC, and yet he managed to win.
Now, I think what we are seeing all over this country, from coast to coast, is that working people are sick and tired of being the only major country on Earth that does not guarantee health care to all people as a human right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: They’re sick and tired of massive income and wealth inequality.
Who believes – now, I know we don’t discuss this much in Congress or in the media, but nobody that I know thinks it makes sense that one man in America today, Mr. Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom half of American society. Who believes that we should sustain and maintain a corrupt campaign finance system, where billionaires are undermining American democracy?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: The reason that we’re going to win is people, whether you’re conservative Republican or Democrat, tired of the status quo and of the massive levels of inequality that exist right now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have written a letter that was shared with us to Democratic leaders in Congress and the DNC calling for public funding of elections and for the party to prohibit political action committees from participating in primary races.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand your principled argument here. However, Democrats have a financial resource problem that is very real as compared to Republicans and their war chest. Why would the party disarm?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: We’re not talking about disarmament. We’re talking about within the Democratic primary, not in the general election.
The campaign finance system today is corrupt. In Michigan, what you had is AIPAC spending $30 million in the Democratic primary trying to defeat Abdul. They lost. And now they’re saying, we’re going to support this guy Rogers, who is a Republican.
So what you are seeing is, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a Democrat, Republican. The special interests – and it’s not just AIPAC. And it’s the A.I. people. It’s crypto. They will take over the primaries and try to get their point of view through, get their special interests accomplished, regardless of which party is – so, to me, it is insane that the Democrats would allow somebody to come in, an entity to come in…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: … that will then, if they lose, go into the other party.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. We need to talk more about this, but I have to pay our bills here and take a break. So please stay with us, Senator Sanders.
(LAUGHTER)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back with more from Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders and the head of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, plus a lot more Face the Nation.
So, stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to “FACE THE NATION.”
We return now to our conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders.
Senator, before the break we were talking about your concern about super PACs and their involvement in primaries. You said you don’t want Democrats to unilaterally disarm. Just to clarify, you highlighted $60 million poured into Michigan to defeat Dr. El-Sayed. Half of it came from AIPAC. They are now saying they’re going to support the Republican in the general, which you also pointed out. Are you OK with Democrats accepting PAC money in the general, but not in the primary?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Look, the world that we live in, until we get rid of Citizens United and get rid of super PACs and move to public funding of elections, that is the reality. You can’t allow Democratic candidates to be outspent 50 to one. But it is a corrupt campaign finance system, and Democrats can take charge of what takes place within their own primaries right now. General election, can’t. But within primaries, Democrats can get super PACs outs. That’s what they should do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to focus in on AIPAC in particular, because Dr. El-Sayed campaigned on this platform of cutting unconditional aid to countries, not just Israel. He said, Egypt, the country his parents emigrated from, cut it to Jordan, cut it to Pakistan, cut it to Saudi Arabia. He listed a number of countries, and Israel.
His mention of Israel and the war in Gaza has drawn a lot of criticism. President Trump said it’s hate of Jewish people.
When you speak, I know you are very specific in referring to the right-wing government of Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister. Would you advise Dr. El-Sayed and other progressive candidates to speak in a way that doesn’t invite as much criticism?
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Look, I think Abdul has run a brilliant campaign. And he’s more than capable of making his own political judgements. But I think, Margaret, all over the country people are deeply concerned that when we have so many problems at home, we have people sleeping out on the streets, people can’t afford health care, we are spending billions and billions of dollars on the right-wing extremist Netanyahu government, which has done horrific things to the Palestinian people. People – many people, experts, including myself, consider what’s going there as a genocide. And I think whether you’re a Democrat, Republican, conservative, progressive, we don’t think that we should be continuing to fund an extremist government like that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some MAGA candidates also make that argument. But this is a real attack line being focused on Dr. El-Sayed in particular.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, let’s be clear. I mean from Trump on down, you know, you have Trump (AUDIO GAP) who is, in many ways, an authoritarian type and he is going to go after El-Sayed because, you know, for racist reasons. I think their first announcement after Abdul won is, he is a Muslim. And we’re all supposed to hate Muslims. You know, these guys have got nothing to say about the major crises facing our country. All they can do is appeal to racism, we’re communists, you know, all kinds of nonsense like that.
But I think that at the end of the day the people of Michigan understand that the status quo is not working. We need a candidate, like Abdul, who has the guts to stand up for working class families. This guy wrote a book, he’s a doctor, on Medicare for all.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: The current health care system is broken. We’ve got to guarantee health care to all people. Abdul understands that and will help us move in that direction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Sanders, we’ll leave it there. We’ll going to talk about health care next with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. So, we’ll continue that part of the conversation.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by the director of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.
Good morning to you, Doctor.
JAY BHATTACHARYA, MD (Director, National Institute of Health): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we should mention, you’re also helping to run the CDC until the new director is sworn in as well.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Until next Wednesday, yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Until next Wednesday.
So, let me ask you about a number of things that I think people at home are worried about, particularly around the food supply. The cyclospora outbreak linked to iceberg lettuce from Mexico is now in 15 states. There were two deaths this week due to it. Yesterday, USDA issued an alerts for a range of products that may have salmonella, including meat and poultry. Twenty-seven states are affected by salmonella, possibly linked to jalapenos, but cilantro, red onion, avocado also listed in the CDC notice. Albertson’s, a grocery store, just recalled some items. There’s risk of salmonella in eggs in Texas, according to the CDC. And then you have this screwworm outbreak affecting beef.
This is overwhelming for someone going into a grocery store right now. Why do they seem out of control?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Well, the cyclospora outbreak is larger than it normally is. I mean normally there’s actually cyclospora cases. The – so, the two deaths that you mentioned, they happened in late July – late June, early July, before we identified the source. And so, folks that are listening, they can rest assured, the CDC and the FDA are working hard to trace back exactly where these outbreaks are occurring from, intervening with the suppliers to make sure that they don’t – and doing recalls to make sure that they – that the disease hasn’t – you know, that the condition doesn’t spread.
I mean, it’s tough. You go to a grocery store. You buy lettuce. You say, hey, can I buy the lettuce?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: And what’d say to folks listening, we’re working hard to make sure that the contaminated sources don’t get onto the shelves. And if you’re worried, you can buy the – buy the lettuce but make sure you wash it carefully. Don’t eat the outer leaves. And if you’re really worried, just, you know, cook your vegetables.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But we’re not hearing from the FDA. I mean it – should there be a restriction on imports from central Mexico right now? It seems like a lot of things are tied back.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes, I mean, I think the key thing is that when we find a contaminated source, we intervene. I can’t speak for the FDA, thank God. I mean it’s just the NIH and CDC. But I can say that the folks who I have worked with at the FDA are – they’re a great team of folks that are – that are tracking back and finding the source of these outbreaks.
And for cyclospora specifically, it’s complicated because the – for technical reasons, it’s much – it’s more different than if it was just a bacteria to find the exact source. But they’ve done a great job finding it. And they’ve been cooperating with the CDC team that I’ve led the last few months to try to identify the source. And, you know, it’s – what we know now is because of that hard work that’s gone on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
But there are also a number of other health issues, including measles cases now at their highest level in 35 years. The CDC says only ten U.S. states have measles vaccine coverage rates above the 95 percent threshold in the prior school year. That is so key because that is, as you know, a marker for basically a way to stop transmission, herd immunity.
Do you believe that the federal government needs to make a really full- throated push to tell parents, go get your kids vaccinated with the MMR vaccine?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: You know, one of the first things I did as CDC director, I think it was back in February of this year, was that there was a big outbreak in South Carolina. And I went on to – I went on – I don’t know if TV is the right word, but I went on camera and I recommended that the best way to end the measles outbreak there was to have their kid – parents vaccinate their kids from measles.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: And the outbreak has now ended in South Carolina, in part because of that.
There’s been a lot of – a lot of outbreaks, not just in the United States, but around the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: And, you know, it’s – a lot of it has to do with sort of a collapse in sort of public trust in a lot of science – you know, public health measures that occurred during the pandemic, for reasons we can – we can discuss. For me, the most important thing is to try to regain that trust.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. But why not – you can have TV ads. You can have something that’s more of a national push. It was notable last week that Secretary Kennedy went on television and did say, parents should get kids vaccinated from measles because it’s effective at preventing infection roughly 97 percent of the time. That was a change for him. He has not always been that clear, as you know. Why not blast that across the airwaves of America?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I mean I think that I’ve done my best to try to do that. Every time anyone’s asked me about vaccinating their kids from measles, I say exactly that, that the best way to protect your kids from measles is to get the vaccine for meals. You know –
MARGARET BRENNAN: This country’s going to lose its measles elimination status in November.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: As did Canada. As did Mexico. As did the U.K.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that’s not accessible, right, the gold standard of science.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: But, you know, I think the thing is –
MARGARET BRENNAN: That MAHA –
(CROSS TALK)
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I think the thing is, if you look at the actually what’s happened, like the – there are specific states where there’s – we have these outbreaks, a big outbreak in Texas, which has now been addressed. Big outbreak in Arizona and Utah that’s been addressed. South Carolina, that’s been addressed.
Now what we saw was an outbreak in Virginia. Again, coming down sharply in now Pennsylvania. It’s specific communities of people that have – that are the highest risk that we have to focus on, as well as the broader sort of message that is important for children to be vaccinated from the measles if we want to address the measles outbreak.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that’s why I brought up herd immunity because it puts everyone at risk, right, not just people.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But on this issue, you were down in Atlanta this past week. This is one year since that horrific shooting at CDC headquarters.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Officer David Rose was honored this past week. He was killed last year protecting CDC employees from a gunman. And we should note, he was a combat veteran, a United States Marine, who had just graduated five months prior from the police academy. Three kids left behind.
The shooter was motivated by misinformation about the Covid vaccine. That is why he shot over 100 bullets into the windows of the CDC.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: And, you know, I –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is enough being done to counter this kind of misinformation?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I mean, I should start with, I got to talk with Officer Rose’s wife a few months back. One of the first things I did is I – you know, to honor him and his sacrifice in protecting the people that work at the CDC, the amazing people that work at the CDC, was we – you know, we renamed the street that leads into the CDC after him. And it was a really nice event.
I’ll tell you, the thing is, I want to focus on attention on Officer Rose because I don’t – I think what the shooter did was horrific. And I think that, you know, if you talk about why shooters do things, the really fundamentally –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, his father said he was brainwashed about the Covid vaccine and thought it was making him suicidal. That’s what he’s – the vengeance was when he said he was going to shoot up the CDC.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I mean, Margaret, I mean the thing is just like, to talk about the shooter puts the emphasis on somebody’s – I mean I think we shouldn’t be putting our emphasis on the shooter.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, I am on misinformation about –
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes. I mean I think the key – the key thing is, there’s a loss of public trust in public health that happened in part because of a lot of – frankly, even on this network, and on other networks, there was a particular single point of view put across during the Covid pandemic about how – you know, that led to things that really did cause harm to people. The school closure is probably the number one thing that left the –
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is not a productive line of claims. We covered Covid in depth on this program, like no other Sunday show did.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I’m not blaming you specifically. What I’m saying is, you want to talk about misinformation, the kinds of decisions and sort of the public sort of face of public health during the pandemic led to many people losing trust in public health –
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Trump administration officials?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: No, I mean, I mean like Biden. So, Biden, for instance, censored me –
MARGARET BRENNAN: The pandemic began under the Trump administration.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: But during the – but during the – but during the –
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we put those officials on our air.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Just so we’re clear, the Biden administration censored me, right? They censored – they sent out direct attacks on people who disagreed on the Covid – on sort of whether the Covid vaccine stopped it –
MARGARET BRENNAN: RFK Jr. called the Covid vaccine “the deadliest vaccine ever made.”
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I – no, I – you should talk to Bobby. But I can tell you what –
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is misinformation. And we’re not being clear about that. And I think that is dangerous, wouldn’t you agree?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: People lost their jobs, Margaret, because the Biden administration censored people and said, look, you can’t even talk about the Covid vaccine harms.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re talking about a shooting.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes, and I’m talking about why you have the kind of distrust that’s led to the kind of – sort of problems that you’re talking – were talking about earlier in public health. That distrust was not caused by President Trump. And it wasn’t caused by Bobby. It was caused by a lot of sort of really fundamentally –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Misinformation –
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes, but often spread by the government itself regarding natural immunity, closing of schools, closures of mask mandates. People lost their jobs because of these vaccine mandates that didn’t make any public health sense.
So, if you want to talk about public trust, you have to embrace that fully, right? You can’t just talk about it in a narrow, political way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m talking about a shooting at the CDC and an officer you said you just went to honor.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s what I was talking about. You’re talking about something else entirely.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: No, no, you’re trying – you’re talking about, Margaret –
MARGARET BRENNAN: I also asked you about shoring up public health in vaccines.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Margaret, just to be blunt, you’re – what you’re talking about is – what you’re talking about is, you’re trying to blame the shooting on Bobby.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, I’m not. I’m reading you what his father (ph) said.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: No, what you’re reading – what you’re – what you’re saying – what you’re implying is that somehow the lack of public trust, right? So –
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m not talking about him. I’m talking about your visit.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes, and my visit –
MARGARET BRENNAN: And is enough being done?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: And I – this was a year – I think it’s really unfortunate, Margaret –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let’s talk about, since you want to restore public trust, tell me what you’re doing now, because “The Washington Post” and “Bloomberg” reported the White House is preparing an executive order on vaccines and autism. What is it going to prescribe? What is it going to do? Why are we seeing another announcement here when I know you are launching research into a plethora of issues that are contributing factors, potentially, to autism? Why would the White House be saying only look at this thing?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Well, I don’t – I mean, you would have to ask the president about the specifics of the executive order. I’ll tell you what we’re doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because is it going to – do you think that’s restoring trust in vaccines?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: The purpose of the – whatever the – I mean I – you can ask the president about the executive order. But I’ll tell you what the focus of the president has been –
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t know about the executive order?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I don’t – I won’t be able to tell you specifically what’s on it because I don’t think it’s done yet. But I – you can ask the president about it.
What I can tell you is that, the president cares deeply, as does Bobby, about the rise in autism. I know you do as well. There are so many families around the country that have had, you know, have faced the issues of this, right?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. And they want real information.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: And so I, as the NIH director, have been focused on making sure that we have science that addresses that very complicated question about why we’ve seen a rise in autism. It’s not going to be a simple answer. And I – last year I authorized something called the Autism Data Science Initiative, that we’re going to have a big sort of early set of – set of results from it in a couple weeks from the dozen and more scientific teams that have been funded to look at this, with a mandate of thinking very broadly, not just genes, not just environmental exposures, but potential interactions.
We don’t know – I – if you ask me, as a scientist, do I know why we’ve seen this rise in autism, I’ll tell you, I don’t know the answer to that question.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: And the fact that it gets so tied up with, OK, is it – is it vaccines, not vaccines? What it does is it sends a signal to scientists that, if you work on this topic, you’re going to get destroyed if you get the wrong answer.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I’ve tried my hardest. The way you build public trust is allow people to talk and think. Without that kind of sort of political overlay, I’ve tried my very hardest as NIH director to make – to allow that to happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which is so key for science. Which is why I’m asking you why the president, putting out an order specifically focused on one what seems to be preconceived notion, how that wouldn’t be undermining what I’m talking about.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Well, you’re jumping ahead. I mean I don’t know exactly what’s in this executive order. Neither do you. So, it’s not – yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it’s interesting that you don’t.
My colleague Matt Gutman here at CBS asked you last week whether you think vaccines cause autism. You said, you don’t know for certain. You said, there isn’t evidence that any vaccine causes autism, but you also don’t have evidence that vaccines do not. Parents are pretending to send their kids back to school.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: OK, so just so – I just want to be very, very clear what I actually said.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Please be clear.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should parents trust that they can go vaccinate their kids when their doctor tells them to do so for them to go back to school?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes, I think – I think that the – that parents, for most kids, especially for the measles vaccines, the DTP (ph), all the standard childhood vaccines, it’s very important that parents vaccinate their kids.
As far as can they feel confident sending them back to school? You know, I just – just to push bac some. It was a tremendous mistake to cause parents to fear that – about sending their kids to school during the Covid pandemic. The kids were better off in school. We shouldn’t be scaring the public –
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m talking about what people do now. It’s August. About to be September. Kids are going back to school. I’m not talking about 2020. I’m talking about 2026.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes, but, Margaret, you’re talking about the – you’re talking about – we’re talking about the why people have –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Clarity from the federal government and the top health official.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes, OK, just so we’re clear. If you want clarity, let me give you some clarity.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Please.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: The reason why you have this problem in public trust is because what happened in 2020 has not yet been addressed. To be –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can these parents trust you and the recommendation that they should go get their kids vaccinated to go back to school?
JAY BHATTACHARYA: Yes. I mean, I think – I mean the parents, should they trust me? I mean I’m giving my recommendation. I vaccinated my kids. I don’t think that it is a – it’s – I think if you want to protect your kids from these sort of parental diseases, yes, you should vaccinate your kids. But it is even more important that these kids go to school. That they, in no way, shape, or form should this show or any other show like it perpetuate the idea that sending their kids to school is worse because there are going to be some health risks there when it’s just not true, right?
If you want to protect your kids from those preventable diseases, vaccinate your kids. I’ve been very, very clear about that. But it is a – it is a mistake, and it contributes to the lack of public trust if you sort of fearmonger around, oh, if you send your kids to school, well, you might be around unvaccinated kids. That’s a tremendous mistake, right? If you vaccinate your kids, you can protect your kids from those risks, whatever they are.
And in any case, it’s better to send the kids to school, because that’s how you keep kids healthy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. We want to send our kids to school.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I’m not – but now addressing what happened in 2020 is part of that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: If you want to say why there’s this loss of public trust, you have to really wrap your arms around that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you trust the science and the health workers and the vaccines now is what I understand you were saying. And so that is the message that I think we can –
JAY BHATTACHARYA: I mean, trust the science. I mean I’ve looked at the scientific evidence and there’s lots – I mean I personally have made decisions for my family around those lines too.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
JAY BHATTACHARYA: So, yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s good to know. Thank you.
We’re going to leave it there, because I know we’re running out of time.
We’ll be back in a momentum.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Federal officials say water systems in at least a dozen states have been breached by cyberattacks, and that the list could grow.
Joining us now is CBS News homeland security and justice correspondent, Nicole Sganga, to tell us more.
Nicole, I’ve heard you talking about it this week, and it was really fascinating to me. We had up a map showing all the states affected here. How did they detect this, and are the water systems safe?
NICOLE SGANGA: Let’s start with, there have been no impacts to the drinking waters in affected communities nationwide, Margaret. I think that’s important for viewers to understand. Only five of the dozen affected states have publicly acknowledged it. You’ll see it on the map.
But operators realized that something was wrong here when they could not access their own computer systems. Essentially, they were locked out by these militia cyber actors.
And what we know right now is that cyber attackers have been going after the industrial control systems. Essentially, the small computers that operate the pumps, the valves, the water flow and the water pressure. And they’ve been doing that because so many of these systems are remote controlled, and were under Covid, which enables them to face the internet directly. And there are just not the firewalls in place to protect these systems. In fact, many of them use default or weak passwords, essentially enabling these attackers to go right in.
In at least one case, and this is of particular concern to the FBI, not only did attackers enter these exposed industrial control systems, but they actually messed with something called the latter (ph) logic, which essentially gave new instructions to the computer about how to operate this system. Now again, we’ve caught this so far, but this is a real concern.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, there were instances back in 2023, when these Iranian-linked hackers were accused of accessing water systems.
NICOLE SGANGA: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In July of this year, Homeland Security, which has that division CISA, which is supposed to be protecting these things –
NICOLE SGANGA: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Said that there was concern about Iranian-affiliated cyber targeting across critical infrastructure. Is that the government saying Iran did this?
NICOLE SGANGA: I think a lot of cyber experts are saying, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it’s probably Iran. But there are some nuances here.
This campaign, like you mentioned, resembles previous Iranian-linked campaigns, right? You have targeting exposed industrial controllers exploiting this weak sort of authentication. A willingness, by the way, to create actual disruption, Margaret. So, often times when we’d see Chinese- linked cyberattacks, (INAUDIBLE), what the Chinese want is just to gain a foothold in the system and to lay quiet. Here we’re seeing actual disruptions, which is part of previously the M.O. for Iran.
That being said, these are very unsophisticated attacks. And so, there are a plethora of cyber actors who could be responsible for this, including those who might be trying to mimic Iran. This is why it’s very important to not just look at the behavioral similarities before the FBI and DHS to use intelligence and to attribute these publicly. Which could take weeks or months, in many cases because the forensic systems are just not good in these water municipalities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
NICOLE SGANGA: Last thing here, how we respond in and of itself is a signal, right? If a nation state can degrade water systems in roughly a dozen states, and the response is just a shrug and an advisory –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
NICOLE SGANGA: That is an invitation to foreign adversaries in the future to take a hit on U.S. critical infrastructure and expect no consequences.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Such a key point.
Nicole Sganga, thank you for your reporting.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you all for watching. Until next week. For “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Margaret Brennan.
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